35 replies to this topic

[Turak]

Just recently picked up an off the shelf retail version of each burner.

Both units are able to read sub-channel data, as well as the leadin and lead out. THey also both can extract audio with perfect quality scores (i.e. CD Speed)

Tested them as far as EFM encoding goes using the EFM Test files available elsewhere in the forum;

Plextor PX-708A - VERY Disappointing, can it be.... A NO SHEEP burner. It could not even pass the very first test (i.e. sd2old.dat). I have read reviews stating that this burner was able to produce backups SD2 v2.60 and 2.80 disks, but I have my doubts. This burner is a very good burner, just not for making backups that use protections that rely on correct EFM encoding (i.e. Safedisc and Safedisc 2 to name a couple). It is a VERY quiet unit, but it sacrafices speed for its quietness. This function can be overridden. The one feature this unit has over the others right now... 8x burning on DVD+R's. Some of the 4x DVD's will burn at 8x, but analysis of the discs shows a MUCH higher error rate at 8x, possible because the media is only rated 4X. Have to wait for some legitimate 8X media to really test the writing quality fairly. THis is still only a 4x burner as far as DVD-R is concerned.

Further testing showed that this unit can READ at a 2 sheep level, but BURNS at a NO SHEEP level, as far as the EFM Test files go. THis was tested on Windows 2000 and Windows XP using two different versions (5.x and 6.x) of Nero.

Lite-ON LDW-411S - At least a 2 SHEEP burner both reading and writing. This one I would highly recommend (at least until a verified 3 Sheep reader/burner comes along). It was able to complete the first two tests (sd2old.dat and sd251.dat), but could not quite manage the bad.dat file. I read a review that states this burner can also handle Safedisc versions 2.60, 2.80, & 2.90, which I have not verified, but have no doubt that it can.

I'll be interested in seeing how the new LDW-811S tests out. This is Lite-On's new 8x DVD+R burner. This would be a true unit to compare to the Plextor unit, since the burn speeds are the same. THe LDW411 is only a 4X Dual mode burner.

Anyway, hope the info helps....

[Sniper Killer]

For me the plextor has worked fine after the couple of firmware updates.

[Pappy]

I have been using the 708A for a few weeks now. I tried the sheep tests and it will write to CD all of the dat files using Nero. I cannot copy any of them back to the HD EXCEPT sheep3.dat. Go figure.

I really like the burner, however, and I'm not complaining one bit.

[Thorz]

I have been using the 708A for a few weeks now.  I tried the sheep tests and it will write to CD all of the dat files using Nero.  I cannot copy any of them back to the HD EXCEPT sheep3.dat.  Go figure.

I really like the burner, however, and I'm not complaining one bit.

Have you tried to copy a Safedisc 2.9 or even a 3.1 game with the Plextor Px-708a? ? I will really apreciate a hint about this. I am looking for a replacement to my pioneer A04 for this chrismas. Thanks a lot for the help!

Also: Can someone confirm if the Liteon Ldw-411s can write Safedisc 3.1 and 2.9? I really like both models the Liteon and the Plextor, but have not a source that can conform about tha capabilities.

Edited by Thorz, 30 November 2003 - 03:17 AM.

[Turak]

YES.... the Lite-ON LDW-411 CAN make backups of SafeDisc 2.9 and 3.x protected discs. But, the rub is that both protections look for a CDR/CDRW disc, so you must either play them from a regular CDROM drive, or use something like Alcohol or CloneCD with the 'Hide CDR' function enabled.

Now....since I posted this message, I had the opportunity to test the NEWEST Lite-On drive, the LDW-811S..... DEFINITELY a WINNER.

I have verified that this drive is at least a 2 sheep reader and at least a 2 sheep writer. Meaning that it can backup all the current SafeDisc protections.

It is supported by CloneCD v4.3.1.7, and Alcohol 120% v1.4.7.1005 with the latest driver update file, Nero v5.5.1.0.5.4 and v6.x.

It is 8x w/ DVD+R, 4x w/ DVD-R, 12X DVD ROM Reader, 40x CDR, 24x CDRW, 40 CD Reader. Another nice thing is that you can write many of the 4x DVD+R's at 8X. I have tested writing the Rietek 4x, Ricoh 4x, TDK 4x, and Memorex 4x at 8x and they write just fine. Playback seems to be fine too (tested on 2 different home players RCA and Norcent).

Best of all...... shop around and you can get em for about $150...... I went ahead and bought one. ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT. BLOWS THE new Plextor 708A away....

The only drive that may be a competitor is the upcoming Pioneer DVR-A07. It is going to be a 8x +R and a 8x -R burner, but who knows if it can read/write the EFM patterns correctly?

I would personally say, get the Lite-On LDW-811S........ BEST DVD Burner out at the moment.

[Thorz]

Nice to hear that the LDW-811S is so good, the bad thing is that it is imposible to find in Norway. I would have to irder it from Germany, Holland or the UK.
Have you tried the 3 sheep test and the bad.dat file test?
I will be very interested if you could conform me that it can copy SD 3.10. Thanks

[Turak]

I have personally verified that it can do Safedisc v2.9. Let me check if any of my Games are Safedisc v3.1.

Yes, I tried the EFM test files. It was able to do the first two, but not the 3sheep.dat or bad.dat files.

But now there is a slight rub to doing the EFM testing.

The catch is, you MUST use a drive with KNOWN capabilities as a reference.

You basically have to separate the reading from writing. The Plextor 708a, for example, is a two sheep reader, but a NO sheep writer. Most of the Lite-On drives I have tested are two sheep readers and two sheep writers. It is very difficult to 'truly' know which readers/writers are three sheep, keep on reading and I will try to explain why.

Think of it this way, how can you verify how good a drive is at writing the patterns, if you do not know if the drive can read the patterns in the first place. Again, using the Plextor 708a as an example. It is an invalid test to try and use the drive to write the test patterns and read them back again...Why you ask.

I tested the following personally, so I know it is factual. Take a Plextor 708a and try writing the first two EFM test patterns (sd2old.dat and sd251). It seems that the writing is successful since it completes with no errors. But, when you try to read them back using the Plextor 708a, it fails. Now why did it fail? Was it that the drive did not write the patterns correctly, or is it that the drive can not read them in? See what I mean. To truly find out the answer, you have to use another drive with known capabilities, such as the Lite-On 52327 (a verfied two sheep reader and 2 sheep writer). The answer ends up being tha the Lite-On can not read the two discs written with the Plextor, therefor, the Plextor can not write the test patterns.

Now, take the known reference drive (i.e. Lite-On 52327) and write two CD's using the first two EFM test patterns (sd2old.dat and sd251.dat). Then try and read them in with the Plextor 708a. It CAN read the CD's written with the Lite-On drive. Therefore, the Plextor CAN read up to the 2 sheep level.

What we REALLY NEED is somewhere that we can purchase a TRUE TEST CD that has been written with a THREE SHEEP BURNER or better yet pressed silver CD, so we can truly test the reading capabilities of the burners. Once we know the true reading capabilities it will help us to determine the true writing capabilities because we will be able to identify the burners that can do three sheep reading.

By the way.... Does anyone TRULY know of a 3 sheep Reader or Burner? I would like to get my hands on one to verify it personnally.

[BigTy]

@ Pappy. Dude i told you about those Plex drives ALONG time ago. there ok at best. Liteon is the future ATM. Im looking at selling my DVD-rw Pioneer A06. and picking up a new liteon or possible. the new pioneer. when i get more info about it. The biggest thing im waiting for is a black faceplate.

[thing]

I've got a Plextor and I've succeeded doing a 1:1 copy of Call of Duty. Just used the default Safedisc 2 settings (it's supposed to be Safedisc 3). The image/burnt disc does not work with Alcohol installed, though. Works fine on a friend's computer (he wanted to try before he bought, and has since uninstalled the game).

In truth, I had no knowledge of sheep or anything like that before getting this drive! It is, however, fantastic for backing up DVD movies (using DVDxCopy Platinum).

Any ideas how it succeeded with Call of Duty?

[BigTy]

yes me.

[Turak]

Regarding "call of Duty", I am pretty sure that the current version of Alcohol is blacklisted. Meaning that you can not run it from an Alcohol virtual drive.

As far as making a 1:1 copy and having your friend test it. I would need more information to possibly explain why it worked or at least 'seems' to work.

The first question would be;

Did you friend test it using a CDRom drive or a Burner? Specifically, which brand and model?

Some other questions;

Does he have software installed that has a 'Hide CDR' function (i.e. Alcohol, CloneCD, Demon Tools, etc)?

Was the backup made from an Original copy of Call of Duty or from a downloaded image? If a copy of the original or an image, then it may have already had a 'patch' applied to it.

As for DVD's, I think it is a VERY GOOD burner. Extremely quiet...

Edited by Turak, 01 December 2003 - 04:31 AM.

[tenndevil]

I think we will call your test hit or miss as plextors go. I have a 98 and XP box, both have NO writing software on them at all, none zero and only has a cdrom. I can use the TDK 840G (rebadged Plex 708A) and the Plextor Premium doesn't make any difference which one I can write Call of Duty (SafeDisc 3.10) and all versions of previous safedisc with out using auto-play, without hiding cdr media or writing anything special to the disk. I can then take those titles to the clean box and not only install but play those games with the back-up disks (Unless the back-up was created with clonecd). Both the TDK and Plex. Prem. write do the sheep test and pass everything but the 3sheep portion. I am not the only one either

[thing]

Just to add to the confusion, I have re-done the image of CoD checking an extra option recommended in other threads (something to do with reading sub-channel data?). Whilst the burnt image is of no use on a computer with Alcohol, the mounted image works! WTF? (not that I am complaining, my son is a ###### for leaving CDs out and rendering them unreadable...)

I know my friend has CloneCD, but I reckon it's an old version that might not have hide CDR media. I'll report back.

[Turak]

Tenndevil.....

Let me clarify things a little......

Since you are using a TDK 840G (rebadged Plextor), it means that anything we are talking about regarding a TRUE Plextor 708a does not apply to the TDK drive. That is, unless you have downloaded TRUE Plextor firmware from thier site and flashed your TDK drive with the true Plextor firmware. Bet you can't.... TDK puts their own, MODIFIED version of the firmware in the drive. So there is a possibility of different capabilities.

As far as your XP box having "NO writing software", sorry....your mistaken. XP has the base ROXIO burning engine built into the XP Operating System (tends to interfere with things, I'd disable it if I were you). But this really doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.

As to the capabilities of a TDK 840G or a Plextor Premium, I will have to take your word regarding thier capabilities since I have not had the chance to personally test them.

As for you being able to take a disk with Safedisc v3.1x protection, make a backup of it onto CDR or CDRW, then take it to a 'clean' machine and play it. I would say you MUST be using a CDRom on the clean machine or it will not work. The Safedisc protection checks for the presence of a CDR and will not play it. Since you can not check for a CDR using a regular CDRom drive, of course it will work....as long as the EFM patterns are written correctly by the burner, of course.

My point being that it IS possible that your TDK drive and the Plextor Premium drive CAN write the EFM patterns correctly, which I say congratulations. I have not tested either of them so I can not personally say what their capabilities are.

BUT... IT IS NOT possible for a TRUE Plextor 708a using Plextor firmware v1.01 or v1.03 to write ANY of the EFM test files correctly. It will seem to write them, but you will not be able to read them using a KNOWN 2/3 sheep CDROM/Burner. Meaning that it can not write ANY of the patterns correctly. It can however READ them at a 2-sheep level.

The Plextor 708a is a GOOD DVD burner, but only an OK CD burner, when it comes to protected CD's.

In comparison, the Lite-On LDW-811S is a GOOD DVD burner and an EXCELLENT CD burner. Now let's talk price....hehe.

Both are good drives. Just depends on exactly what you really want to use it for. In my opinion, you get a little more bang for your buck with the Lite-On's, especially when you figure the price in.

Edited by Turak, 01 December 2003 - 06:19 AM.

[Turak]

Thing...

Someone had mentioned that the Safedisc v3.1 protection was also using sub-channel data.

I will have to do some more testing regarding the Safedisc v3.1 protection. I have tested from Safedisk 1.xx to 2.9x fairly thoroughly, but have not tested the v3.1 nearly enough yet.

AS for CloneCD having the 'Hide CDR' function. It is part of its system tray component. The last few versions from Elaborate Bytes had it and the new version from Slysoft has it. But, the Elaborate Bytes versions had it disabled for US and Japan users. Not sure if the Slysoft version has it enabled for everyone or not.

[Pappy]

@ Pappy. Dude i told you about those Plex drives ALONG time ago. there ok at best. Liteon is the future ATM. Im looking at selling my DVD-rw Pioneer A06. and picking up a new liteon or possible. the new pioneer. when i get more info about it. The biggest thing im waiting for is a black faceplate.

Yep, you did tell me... .

I bought the Plextor to back up my DVD collection but also for archiving digital images on DVD. I am very satisfied with the performance and I'm looking forward to the premastering function for Alcohol.

I have backed up one "Copy Controlled" Cd for my daughter who wants the original safe at home and the copy in her pickup and the Plex had no problem whatsoever, I'll have to look at it again but I think the protection was CDS 200, can't remember the version.

I have also backed up Max Payne 2 which runs just fine in my LTD163 so even though it won't do any of the sheep tests except sheep3.dat, I'm happy.

[tenndevil]

As far as your XP box having "NO writing software", sorry....your mistaken. XP has the base ROXIO burning engine built into the XP Operating System (tends to interfere with things, I'd disable it if I were you).
and if you would read my post closer you would see that I said it only had a cdrom

So lets split hairs, I forgot to acknowledge the fact that I disable this to begin with this is a little nitpicky since everyone knows it doesn't do what you are talking about anyways. I do know a couple of other people (testers for various burning software) who do use the 708A and have no trouble doing what you say it can't, you are basing everything on your one machine, it could be a glitch for you. This writer the (708A) is used for testing extensively, and no problems that you mention have come up yet, do some more research, look at the capabilities, because what you would be saying is that the Alcohol developers are wrong with their testing and so would just about everyone else but you. I believe like all Plextors it will probably be hit or miss based on machine specs among other things.

[TechieDave]

Hey guys. I am interested in purchasing the Lite-On LWD-411S DVD burner and I was wondering if it was the right choice for me. I am wanting a DVD burner to be able to back up my PS2 games because they get scratched a lot. Would this be the best burner for backing up PS2 games? If not, let me know what you guys would suggest. Thanks a lot for your concern.

- D@ve :ninja2:

[Turak]

Spend the extra $10 US and get the LDW-811S, if possible. They go for about $150 US. If they are not available, then yes the LDW-411S is a GOOD choice.

Both do DVD's well, and can backup most of the CD protections without a hitch.

Remember though, No matter which Burner you pick, you will have to have a 'modded' PS2 Game machine to play the backups......

Edited by Turak, 03 December 2003 - 05:41 AM.

[Thorz]

US$150?????? You Americans are so lucky! Here in the Europes you find it for no less than €165, that is like US£170!!!