22 replies to this topic

[MaLing]

You may find me "stuborn" but I would reject this game just only for its name( diablo( diabolos in greek- or diavolos since greek B is pronunciated as the english V)= devil of course. In general I can't understand why these bloodshed-based games attract people. I think that the natural- in fact instinctive- thing is to disgust blood...

This game is VERY tame compared to many of the new games "Grand Theft Auto" comes to mind..........

That's one of the things that makes me ruther pesimistic about this world's future.
We go from the bad to the worse...

Charalambos, I have read a piece of news today, do you have such one in Greece?

The newspaper has its copyright, so I can not copy it here. The content roughly is:

Three Brazilians, I will call them A, B, and C, played a game about murder. They were all 21 and 22 years old. A and B were a team, and C was another team alone. Two teams competed, they agreed that if a team lost, it had to let the other do the same as the game, viz. killed the loser's whole family. At last, C lost, so he let A and B murder him and his parents by simulating the methods of the game. My goodness, B and C really did kill C's whole family, totally three people...

These three rubbish guys were already 21 or over, adults, not 3 years old babies...

Are there any responbilities of this game?



I should say we go from the worse to the worst... Still any further?

Does anyone know the name of the game?

Edited by MaLing, 16 May 2005 - 02:41 PM.

[Charalambos]

It is the same controversy as with television generated violence. When something like that happens they ask why only these people and not everybody who played the game or watched the movie did these things. One can easily agree that these people are problematic from the begining, but the game or the movie is the one that finaly inspires them of their deeds. As we say in my country: " Not only the vinegard was bended but the donkey ate it also."

Edited by Charalambos, 16 May 2005 - 04:39 PM.

[shawn_nee]

They said the Columbine kids here in the US played Doom and planned their attack from playing that game. Think about how old that game is and they are just now blaming it? After all the other games have come out already? Also there was a kid that played GTA3 and part of the game was said to let you sit on the freeway overpass with a sniper rifle and do what you wanted, so this kid went to an over pass with a rifle and started targeting cars and shooting them. Blaming the game is stupid and crazy, it's like blaming rap music for an increase in violence. People should take account for their actions these people are old enough to know right from wrong.

[Attila]

I think a large part of why the world seems to be getting worse and worse is largely due to the globalization of mass media and that we are "actually" hearing about these things more whereas perhaps even 50 years ago the news media wasn't quite so developed.

They say that in the middle ages you had something like a 35% chance of dieing from being murdered. Well I would suppose those statistics at least have improved since then...

However if I had to generalize I would have to say that society is becoming much more materialistic as time goes on and cares less and less about the fellow man/woman as compared to their own comfort and getting ahead. This is probably reflected more in the day to day interactions of people more than anything else but could a correlation be drawn towards violent crime? Probably to some extent...however, if you look throughout history, humanity has been nothing but violent to each other with only varying degrees of brutality.

Of course there will be varying points of view but I am not so sure myself that things are getting worse and worse. Certain things might be, but I tell you...there is no other moment in human history up till this point that I would rather be living in.

[2005]

I was really upset that they tried to dime out DOOM because of what some moron did. Those people are mentally sick and have problems... Ive played plenty of violent video games but unlike those people I have half a brain and Im not manupliative like they are. You see the first time this happened and a game got blamed that was a gateway for other kids to act like pure retards and do what they wish. People have minds and they should use them, DOOM requires that you kill Barrons of Hell, not your next door neighboors.

[MaLing]

Attila, sorry to ask you to talk such a bloody crime on your birthday.

What all of you have mentioned are true. For instance, only one crazy guy really did use a gun to shoot on the overpass, and the rest did not.

I sigh in this case (not in all other cases, eg the one mentioned above) because it is something different. The crazy people in other cases just hurt other unknown people. This time A, B, and C were friends. They knew each others, and probably their families, and C even really let others kill himself, and his PARENTS. If I had been him, even I had lost the game, I should not have let my parents be killed anyway. I could even not have imagined about that. How could it happen?

Perhaps they had really had mental problems. But at the same time all these three people were also mad? And by chance they had come to know each other and play game?

I sigh also because if things continue happening like that, I am afraid one day the government will set some laws against the games. It is a situation which no one wants to see.

[Charalambos]

I' ve played plenty of violent video games but unlike those people I have half a brain and Im not manupliative like they are.

Many decads have passed since Banduras'( institutor of the theory of "social learning") classic experiments on TV generated violence. In these, a group of kids were divided in two smaller ones: The one would see something violent on the TV, whereas the other wouldn't. Their behavior afterwards was monitored for a short time. It was found that the ones that watched the violent stuff on the TV would display much more agressive behavior to each other than those of the other group. Now that we speak about kids, do you know how many of these games that are rated as "suitable for 15 year olds and higher" or "suitable for 18 year olds and higher" are played by 12-year-old kids or even less? And even if you are 18 years old, playing these games makes you more agressive and less sensitive to human pain, even if you don't understand that; it influences you subconsiously. Even the fact that you get to like these games( who was excited when he saw one of these bloodsheds for the first time?) doesn't remind you of the procedure of getting used to smoking? You may get shocked from what I'll say but I'm afraid its the sheer truth. Every paranoic who wants to rule the world( and there are always some) needs people to cut heads for them and they have to be produced somehow, especially in a time like ours that a lot of talking about human rights is having place. Perhaps it won't be you, but it can be your neightboor... or even your friend. Hitler's hords weren't born villains, nor did they become such in a single day...

[Attila]

Not a problem MaLing. This is an interesting topic.

I can't disagree with you Charalambos. My father (who is a Pastor, Presbyterian) told me this almost every single day and my family kept me quite sheltered from these types of things when I was growing up. I can tell you that I did experience quite a thrill when I did see the kinds of things you are talking about. Albeit at not such a young age that kids nowadays are seeing them. Thank God it never influenced myself or anyone I know to do anything bad.

Some people though as 2005 mentioned are just susceptible to being influenced by things. Whether it is a game, a movie or even just a news story, these people who are already unbalanced can be influenced to a greater extent to act on their impulses. Unfortunately society wants more and more exciting entertainment (who doesn't enjoy playing some of these violent games...I know I do) and I guess when people have to decide about whether or not having this entertainment against the possible chance that someone might or might not be unduly influenced by it, well I think we know which way the decision will go most times.

As human beings we are very complex things. We need to balance our wants and needs against the greater good for society. As I said earlier, I believe our wants are perhaps going against society's greater good in many types of things.

Edited by Attila, 17 May 2005 - 06:07 PM.

[MaLing]

That is marvellous!!!

Charalambos, shawn_nee, Attila, and 2005 have given their thoughts. These thoughts are rational indeed. Some of them are new to me, I had never thought of them.

Although I am inclined to agree with Charalambos more, I must ask myself : 'Have I just brought it to a speedy conclusion?' 'Am I influenced so much by that news at this moment?'

I think I need more facts and to think it deeply again. Perhaps it is too early to scold the games now.

Any more ideas are very welcome.

[Charalambos]

CODE

Hitler's hords weren't born villains, nor did they become such in a single day...

We are not in position to make the rules about games or anything, but I think everybody of us must be carefull and responsible in the choices that he makes. We must protect ourselves and especially our children from whatever can corrupt their innocent souls, now that it is not late. Cause, at least for some of us, the time does come that it is too late... We already live in a rather cruel world, in which everybody tends to care only for himself, we must not loose our human sensitivity and our human emotions.

[shawn_nee]

Now that we speak about kids, do you know how many of these games that are rated as "suitable for 15 year olds and higher" or "suitable for 18 year olds and higher" are played by 12-year-old kids or even less? And even if you are 18 years old, playing these games makes you more agressive and less sensitive to human pain, even if you don't understand that; it influences you subconsiously.

Correct, but it's the games that get blamed for this instead of parents and retailers. Parents are shedding the blame for this saying it was the game that did it. I think parents are getting off scott free, they should be held accountable for allowing their kids to play or watch these games. But I think it is not only games, it's also movies and TV. They portray a lot of violence as well and some make it look too "cool", and who is in charge of allowing the kids to watch it???? Kids should know right from wrong, or the teachers and parents have failed thier jobs, thats not to say that would be all. I know kids will choose what they want to do, but they know what they are doing is wrong (I was one of those kids). Political people get involved in business they need not to, to get games banned or to punish game publishers for putting out what the public wants, they should turn it back on the parents and retailers for allowing thier kids to get thier grubby little hands on them in the first place. I am not attacking all parents, just the ones who don't care what their kids do and then take no responsability for it. My parents let me run wild, but I knew right from wrong, they blamed themselves for me not my games or my friends. They felt they didnt instill virtues or correct me enough. I think they might be right on some accounts, it was still my decision to do what I did, but now I am a better person. or atleast the courts say I am....

Edited by shawn_nee, 19 May 2005 - 04:06 PM.

[Charalambos]

Kids should know right from wrong, or the teachers and parents have failed thier jobs, thats not to say that would be all. I know kids will choose what they want to do, but they know what they are doing is wrong (I was one of those kids).

Kids don't know right from wrong, they have to learn it from their parents and teachers. But in the age of "mother TV" and all that kind of stuff controling the kids (with the good meaning of it) gets more difficult everyday. The parents when you were young, shawn_nee, had a much easier task regarding the breeding of their kids than todays parents and, as you admit for yourself, they still had a really hard time with this.

[shawn_nee]

I dont see that today is anyworse from 20 years ago though. Thee was an article in a local paper here that started out naming a list of horrible deaths. Like repeat murders, children killing other people, serial killers, people eating other people, and a whole lot more, then it said all of these are from the early years 1900-1920. And the point of the article was that back then is the same as now. The only differnece between then and now is the ease of excusses and the ammount that are created. I see the difference between my wife and the way she was raised and the way I was. Here in the south you got a whippin when you were bad for her in the north they got time out or ignored. No one in her family has been to jail or arrested, me I have spent enough time of both to make up my mind on where I would rather be.

[MaLing]

What we are now discussing, like TV programmes, films, games etc., I think there are many parts which involve in them. These parts are different characters and play different roles. Let me try to illustrate them:

Matter Creator Assistant Preventer Receiver
-------- ----------- ------------- ------------ ------------
Games Producer Retailers Parents Children
Films Producer Cinemas... Parents Children
TVProg Producer ???.......... Parents Children

From the above, we can see all the matters are created by producers, they are the ones who run their businesses. The retailers, cinemas... are assistants to the businesses.

Let us first look at an example.

If someone walks out of his house and gets robbed, will it be unfair to say:'You must know when you go out of your house, everywhere is dangerous on streets. It is your full responsibility to protect your money. If you want to be safe, stay in your house'? While it is our responsibilty to protect money, we are not the crime creators. If the robbers did not rob, we would not need to pay so much extra attention and energy to protect. Of course, it is really impossible that all robbers disappear in the world, but we only are preventers, we should not be blamed that we are careless, in fact we should be sympathized. In addition, although we should take care of our money, the methods of robbing and weapons used are getting newer and newer, it is hard for us to protect all the time. It is still very important to catch robbers and punish them. We should not get punishment just because we are careless.

Perhaps the above example does not perfectly match, but roughly it is the same situation that parents only are preventers. I think it is unfair just to say it is their fault for not preventing all those. And as we have seen above, there are just too many things for parents to prevent, new things come every moment, parents very easily and carelessly ignore them. No one is perfect, we can not expect parents so too. And parents also have many things to do, to care of, besides children.

I am not saying that parents have no responsibility. Even so, the rate of responsibilty is very low, comparing to creators, who should have the highest rate, and assistants, who should have a second highest rate. To improve this situation, should we try to ask the creators to stop 'attacking', catch them, punish them or ask the parents to 'defend' harder? When new ways of 'attack' appear, should we let them so and just blame the parents not noticing them and learn new ways to 'defend'?

There are many ways to teach children. Some parents restrict what their kids do. Some just let the kids do whatever they want, and let them learn from mistakes. Some parents do other ways. Every way has its own advantages and drawbacks, it is not a matter of right or wrong.

Edited by MaLing, 20 May 2005 - 07:30 AM.

[shawn_nee]

I'm not holding parents fully responsible, but the majority of them will buy these "M" rated games for their kids because it makes the kids happy, or shuts them up, or keeps them busy for awhile. I worked at Blockbuster for a good while, and the policy was that the games when rented but off a warning if it was over certain ratings, so we wouldnt just rent it out to every 5 year old. If the warning went off we looked to see if the parents put restrictions on their accounts. If they did they had to come in and approve the game, if not we were allowed to rent it out. Most parents didnt care, they just sent their kids in and said pick a game. We caught so much crap from parents after they got home and saw what their kids were playing and came back to yell and scream at us for letting thier kids rent that kind of game. My point is that the first line of defense should start at home, the best way to change games is not to buy or rent them.

[Charalambos]

My point is that the first line of defense should start at home.

I agree with you, shawn_nee.

The best way to change games is not to buy or rent them.

That' s the only option of defense that we really have. If they don't sell their crap, they' ll have to change their products to something better.

[Attila]

I couldn't agree more myself.

[MaLing]

I give a vote to it too. Boycott is the best opposition.

However, nowadays there are still many parents who do not know about computer, and some have the attitudes as what Shawn Nee has stated...

Edited by MaLing, 23 May 2005 - 06:30 AM.

[arbitriter]

I think placing blame for these things on anybody but the ckhildren and their parents is absurd. For starters the vast majority of people who play violent games do not commit any such acts. Even if they did it would not excuse them from responsibility for their actions. arguing that video games made me do it is like saying space aliens abducted me and brainwashed me to commit a crime, sure it might have influanced you in some manner, but guess what kids, its big boy time now. Ultimately the buck stops with the kids and their parents, not the producers of whatever game or movie supposedly influanced these children.

As for the idea of boycotting violent games, i have mixed feelings. if you truly dont believe a game is acceptable for public sale, then by all means express your opinion, that is what its for. By fighting against violent games simply because they are violent is dumb. I dont know about everybody else, but i like violent games. i like GTA3, DOOM3 UT2004, and a whole host of other games in that genre. Not because i just love killing, or am enthralled with seeing people die, but because it is a game, and its fun. Games are supposed to break the bounds of what we are capable of in real life, they are fantasy, the acts of imagination. if all games were like real life then we would have one boring gaming industry. imagine a thousand copies of the sims out there, and that was all there was. games are allowed to break the rules because they are just that: games.

[Tron]

arbitriter I agree with you. People must stop trying to blame inanimate objects for their actions. I have 4 children and they have played many of these games. They are not stupid, they know the difference between the game world and the real world. I have taken the time to teach them right from wrong, and I have gotten MANY complements on my children's manors. They are some of the most well behaved children you could ever meet. The ages are 21, 19, 14, 1 so you can see they are not all close in age. And when the time comes that they needed discipline they got it, when they had praise coming they got that too. I love my kids more than anything in this world. My two older kids do not play these games much anymore but my 14 yr old still plays these games and is a very nice boy. Sometimes he has trouble sharing the controller and I have to step in, but that is normal at that age... LOL... When I was a kid the BAD parents and kids blamed the music, now they blame the movies, and video games. They must have forgotten that the game machines and TVs have an on/off switch, and if they feel their little ankle bitters have been in front of the tube too long that they can use that switch. If you have a child who is more impressionable (parents know if their kids are) then that parent has a responsibility to intervene. I never had to.... In these cases like Columbine they knew those kids were up to no good. If my kids were building explosives in the garage and I did not know something was wrong, then I would have to be an idiot! I know what my kids are up to, and they would never try anything like this because they know that I am watching, and that I care. I blame the parents and I blame those kids!


Diablo was and still is a GREAT game! I might have to get that out again one of these days!!!!


Now I do not expect you to agree with me, that is what is great about freedom, we can have our own opinions!