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Alcohol pushes BIN/CUE audio tracks 2-seconds out-of-place


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#1 Trial User_Elum_*

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 05:28 AM

Hi Alcohol Soft

Here is the System Info report you requested to be added in support posts. My post follows afterwards.




I don’t know if this is the right place to post this, as it’s more of a bug report, but I thought I'd bring your attention to a problem that has been in Alcohol 120% since 2005 involving the .BIN/.CUE image format. Basically, when dumping a CD that contains data on the first track and audio on the following tracks (an old computer game is a good example), Alcohol will throw the audio tracks exactly 2-seconds out-of-sync. This causes the first 2-seconds of a track to be played at the end of the track preceding it. By this, I mean that a song will start 2-seconds in, play through, get to the end (where a short silence is usually heard) and then instead of going to the next track like it normally should, the first 2 seconds of the next track play as if they are part of the song. Then the next track will start seamlessly, except 2 seconds in, and this process continues throughout the whole CD.

To correct this, you have to edit the .CUE file created by Alcohol with Notepad and shave off 2 seconds from the middle set of digits of every track numbered #3 and onwards (track 1 is data, track 2 is audio but is always in sync). By doing this, the audio is set back into its original position and play's perfectly. The only reason I know how to do this is because I stumbled upon a person who had commented on this on a website, otherwise I would have had no idea why the tracks were all mixed up. Very few people seem to be aware of this problem, and even fewer would know how to fix it.

I know that BIN/CUE is a foreign format to Alcohol, as is CCD, but the benefit of BIN/CUE is its portability and support. Almost every single burning program supports BIN/CUE, while only a few support MDF/MDS or CCD. In its current state, the BIN/CUE support in Alcohol is useless for audio CD's if the person making the image is unaware of the de-synching problem, and even if they were, they’d still have to know how to edit the .CUE file. Given that Alcohol 120%’s is regarded as the best disc-imaging program out there, I don’t think it’s much to ask for it to properly support the most basic of image formats.

I’ve chosen 3 games to use as part of my experiment to show you the problem, each one ripped to BIN/CUE once with Alcohol and then again with CDRWin I’m using CDRWin as a comparison because I had heard that data+audio CD’s ripped with it have their audio in normal sync and, lo-and-behold, as the following experiment shows, they do!. Up until a few weeks ago I thought it was a problem with the BIN/CUE format itself. Anywho, let’s begin:

Monkey Island 1 (1992) - Plain data track and lots of audio tracks.
Quake (1996) - CD-XA data track and a number of audio tracks.
Starsiege (1999) - Predominantly plain data (500mb) with 4 audio tracks.

Here are snippets of the .CUE files for each game, one for Alcohol and one for CDRWin. Note the discrepancies in bold and similarities in underlined italics:


Monkey Island CDRWin .CUE (In-Sync):

FILE "MONKEY1-CDRWIN.BIN" BINARY
TRACK 01 MODE1/2352
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 04:58:00
TRACK 03 AUDIO
INDEX 01 07:00:35
TRACK 04 AUDIO
INDEX 01 09:09:00
TRACK 05 AUDIO
INDEX 01 11:17:30
TRACK 06 AUDIO
INDEX 01 13:16:00


Monkey Island Alcohol .CUE (Out-Of-Sync)

FILE "MONKEY1-ALCOHOL.BIN" BINARY
TRACK 01 MODE1/2352
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 04:58:00
TRACK 03 AUDIO
INDEX 01 07:02:35
TRACK 04 AUDIO
INDEX 01 09:11:00
TRACK 05 AUDIO
INDEX 01 11:19:30
TRACK 06 AUDIO
INDEX 01 13:18:00


Quake CDRWin .CUE (In-Sync):

FILE "QUAKE-CDRWIN.BIN" BINARY
TRACK 01 MODE2/2352
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 08:56:61
TRACK 03 AUDIO
INDEX 01 14:05:31
TRACK 04 AUDIO
INDEX 01 16:31:32
TRACK 05 AUDIO
INDEX 01 24:51:51
TRACK 06 AUDIO
INDEX 01 30:57:05


Quake Alcohol .CUE (Out-Of-Sync):

FILE "QUAKE-ALCOHOL.BIN" BINARY
TRACK 01 MODE2/2352
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 08:56:61
TRACK 03 AUDIO
INDEX 01 14:07:31
TRACK 04 AUDIO
INDEX 01 16:33:32
TRACK 05 AUDIO
INDEX 01 24:53:51
TRACK 06 AUDIO
INDEX 01 30:59:05


Starsiege CDRWin .CUE (In-Sync):

FILE "STARSIEGE-CDRWIN.BIN" BINARY
TRACK 01 MODE1/2352
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 58:51:29
TRACK 03 AUDIO
INDEX 01 61:11:62
TRACK 04 AUDIO
INDEX 01 64:11:12
TRACK 05 AUDIO
INDEX 01 66:26:61


Starsiege Alcohol .CUE (Out-Of-Sync):

FILE "STARSIEGE-ALCOHOL.BIN" BINARY
TRACK 01 MODE1/2352
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 58:51:29
TRACK 03 AUDIO
INDEX 01 61:13:62
TRACK 04 AUDIO
INDEX 01 64:13:12
TRACK 05 AUDIO
INDEX 01 66:28:61


Whew!. As you can see, the games ripped with Alcohol have their audio tracks 2-seconds forward out of place, while the CDRWin ripped games are perfectly normal. The only way to correct the Alcohol created Cuesheet files is by editing them and removing 2 seconds from the middle set of digits of each audio track, thus restoring the tracks original position so that it is identical to the CDRWin Cuesheet. It seems that maybe Alcohol isn’t compensating for the pre-gap or something, I have no idea.

Would you be able to fix this problem?. I don't really know what else to say, but I've tried to provide as much information about the issue as possible, so I hope you can help.

Edited by Robbo, 23 January 2007 - 05:37 AM.
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#2 Charalambos

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 10:22 AM

This is a known problem of Alcohol regarding the cue/bin format, it just doesn't use the postgap/pregap information. I believe that the development team will look into it.

#3 Pandor

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 02:40 AM

I reported this a long time ago (can't even locate my thread anymore on this forum) with some sega saturn games as an example.
Seems like a mayor issue, and still not fixed....

Check out my join date, that is when a reported the problem!

Edited by Pandor, 27 January 2007 - 02:41 AM.


#4 Pandor

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 02:59 AM

These were my original findings on Tue Jul 26, 2005 (I posted the following on another forum):
QUOTE
Notes:
DO NOT use alcohol 120% to do a bin/cue rip.
Alcohol uses RAW read mode, without subcode analysis, so you will loose gap data.

Also alcohol has a strange way of making/parsing cue files.
A mixed mode disc has a PREGAP between track 1 (the data track) and track 2 (audio track). This PREGAP seems to move every audio track following it, up by 2 seconds.
CDRWIN takes this into account, and will shift every track in the CUE down by 2 seconds (so when burning they will get shifted back up by 2 seconds due to the 2 second PREGAP).
Alcohol doesn’t do this. So all your tracks are actually shifted up by 2 seconds after burning. So they are no longer on their original place.
More info: http://forum.alcohol...amp;#entry99671

I don't have the details anymore, and the link to my bugreport (and technical details) have since been removed.
I don't care anymore, since I've moved on to Linux +1y ago, but it might help others with bin/cue images.

Edited by Pandor, 27 January 2007 - 03:06 AM.


#5 Tron

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 07:40 AM

Pandor, this is the trial user forum. Since you are a member you should get access to the members only section. As for your post, we have redone the forum since you were last here. Much of the forum has been cleaned up and so I am sure your post was cleared because of inactivity. If you still need any help with Alcohol please use the Customer Only forum. You can gain access by asking the Admins for access....

#6 Pandor

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 03:39 PM

As i said, i really don't care about the bug as i'm no longer a win32 user.
I was just surprised that this bug is still not solved, after 2 years...
That reminds me why i switched over to open-source software tongue.gif

#7 zamiel

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 06:33 PM

If you aren't a Win32 user anymore then why the need to visit the forum for a Win32 program....

#8 Trial User_Guest_*

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 11:12 PM

Sorry for bumping this, but I was wondering if anyone came up with a solution to this as I am experiencing it too. Alcohol is great and I'd definitely purchase it if such a glaring problem were resolved!

#9 zamiel

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 12:43 AM

http://forum.alcohol...showtopic=23848

#10 Jito463

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 05:41 AM

The issue is still being looked into, however if you use Alcohol's native MDS format, then this problem does not occur.

#11 pablokks

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 11:51 AM

OMG I have just found out that this problem exists still till this day.



#12 Anakin94

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Posted 25 October 2021 - 12:15 PM

Hello,

i know this thread is very old, but this bug is still not fixed.

Creating images in BIN/CUE format will made audiotracks 2 seconds out of sync.

I found some images on a archive website, that are also having this issue.

So this is a major issue.

Please can the support team fix this finally?

 

Thanks.



#13 Charalambos

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Posted 25 October 2021 - 07:16 PM

This has to do with the reading of the subchannel data. The problem is that some audio copy protections use these subchannel data and it seems that it is a bit difficult for Alcohol to tell when the subchannel data are used for the postgap/pregap purpose or they are used for copy protection. In order to read the subchannel data you must use the Audio CD+ datatype but then you can't create a CUE/BIN image. I don't know if there can be a solution for this problem, only the Development Team can try to find one. However I don't think that this issue is so important.



#14 Anakin94

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Posted 29 October 2021 - 12:26 PM

When i use MDF/MDS or CloneCD format then it's not happen, also if dump the disc withtout subchannel data.

BIN/CUE images with audiotracks are broken and for archiving discs it's important to have a proper dump.

Can you inform the issue to the development team?

Thanks.



#15 Charalambos

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Posted 29 October 2021 - 07:07 PM

The issue is known, I don't know if the Development Team will find a solution.






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