24 replies to this topic

[KConrad]

I was recently told by a friend to make a MiniImage of my backups..
And trying to be smart and all I say, "Ya, I've been thinking of that too"
Now just what the bloody heck is a MiniImage and how does it work?

[zamiel]

Alcohol does not create these, they're small images just containing enough information to start the game. You'll have to find some third party tool to do this. Their legality is in question seeming its modifying the image in a way not intended by the developer.

[KConrad]

I see.
Hmm, however since it will b made from an original and not be used by others than me I don't see the real problem..?
Care to tell me where I could find one of these, or would that be asking a little too much?

[zamiel]

Sorry, I don't know where to find such a tool and it most likely would not be supported here as even though it would only be used by you, its not part of the licensing agreement etc when you install the game.

[bcn_246]

Post edited by Admin.

Edited by Phoenix, 18 December 2004 - 09:38 PM.

[shawn_nee]

ps. when I first made mini-images I would also use Hex to remove parts to make the image even smaller, however the legality of doing this is questionable.

Yes it is in question, but so is what you are doing as well.

[bcn_246]

From what I gather it is illegal to post the images, or give them to anybody, however telling people how to make them from original, legal media isnt illegal.

Ben

[shawn_nee]

Creating the images is not illegal but altering the images is. What you are creating is an incomplete disc image. Again it is a fine grey line, I'm not saying it is bad, it is just a very grey area. The software is designed to make a complete image of the disc and not alter or remove the copy protection or files. It could be seen as an alteration since the image is not complete.

[Phoenix]

@bcn_246

While I am unsure about the legality issues here, I am erring on the side of caution and have removed your post information.

The method you have described seems to me to remove the copy protection from the original disc, to do this is not legal.

Alcohol does not remove or alter the original disc to do so would be against the EULA of the disc in question. So until I seek advice from our legal Dept I am afraid I have had no alternative other than to remove the information in your post.

Like shawn-nee said

it is a fine grey line,

[Reef]

The method you have described seems to me to remove the copy protection from the original disc, to do this is not legal.

I thought it was the other way around, removing all data and just keep the copy protection on the image...
In fact it's just another way of emulating the original disks, since the data is not altered, only removed.
If these images are illegal then any backup that needs emulation is also illegal.

[Phoenix]

since the data is not altered, only removed.

Thats the point!! you are not allowed to remove data from the origional disc, Alcohol does not remove any origional data

[bcn_246]

Ok, I fully understand you have to be very carfull, Alcohol is in a grey area allready.

Ben

Edited by bcn_246, 19 December 2004 - 01:19 PM.

[bcn_246]

No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that--

`(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

Doesnt that make Alcohol illegal?

`(A) to `circumvent a technological measure' means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and

I would say that Alcohol "avoids" and "bypasses" the copy protection.

Mini-images are as legal as normal images from what I can see, as the copy protection data is still there.

This section of the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) can be found HERE

Ben

ps. philamber (a lawyer from CDFreaks) looked into this, and decided that instructions on how to make a mini-image where legal, but posting of the actual images was illegal.

Edited by bcn_246, 19 December 2004 - 01:20 PM.

[Jito463]

No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that--

`(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

Doesnt that make Alcohol illegal?

No, because Alcohol does not "circumvent" the copy protection. It duplicates it, or emulates it. Either way, it retains the protection on the disc. This was why 321 Studios got in trouble with their game copying software. It *did* remove the protection. Alcohol does not.

[Reef]

since the data is not altered, only removed.

Thats the point!! you are not allowed to remove data from the origional disc, Alcohol does not remove any origional data

Since when is it illegal to create a disc without any data on it?
It would probably be illegal to remove a part of the data, but when all data is removed it's just an empty disc with copy protection on it

And err... since 1:1 copies of copy protected discs are impossible to make, this means that any backup made with Alcohol does NOT contain exactly the same data as the original CD, thus making Alcohol illegal (as some data on the backup is 'altered')

Edited by Reef, 20 December 2004 - 01:08 AM.

[flips]

And err... since 1:1 copies of copy protected discs are impossible to make, this means that any backup made with Alcohol does NOT contain exactly the same data as the original CD, thus making Alcohol illegal (as some data on the backup is 'altered')

A distinction has to be drawn between the program recorded on the disc (invariably subject to copyright and which you do not own but for which you merely have a licence) and the physical structure of the actual disc itself (which is not subject to copyright and which you do own).

Most copy protections rely upon the physical structure of the disc which is not, itself, subject to copyright. As a general rule (laws do vary from country to country), if the program is not altered as part of the recording process, it matters little that the physical structure of the media on which it is recorded is different from that on which the original was recorded, the physical structure of the original being either imitated or emulated on the copy so as to enable the copy to work.

Indeed, physical structure of cds protected by e.g. securom can only ever be imitated or emulated since it isn't possible to buy blank media for consumer use with the necessary physical characteristics. However, that doesn't make either an RMPS emulation or a twinpeak/twincreator copy illegal since, in neither case is the copyright program itself altered. What is done is to emulate (RMPS) or imitate (twinpeak/twincreator) the physical structure of the original cd which is not subject to copyright.

[shawn_nee]

ps. philamber (a lawyer from CDFreaks) looked into this, and decided that instructions on how to make a mini-image where legal, but posting of the actual images was illegal.

That may be good enough for CdFreaks, but he doesnot work for Alcohol, so we have to go by what the Alcohol lawyers say. Again tyhis is all still a fine line that seems to be tip-toed on to much right now. Lets just agree to disagree on the subject and move on to more happier thoughts like Christmas or which ever holiday you celebrate.

Happy Holidays to all!!!!

[flips]

That may be good enough for CdFreaks, but he doesnot work for Alcohol, so we have to go by what the Alcohol lawyers say.

True enough but, of course, like you, I am a beta tester.

[Btw, you are correct in stating that it is a grey area and there is a very fine line with respect to mini-images between legality and illegality insofar as the laws of most countries are concerned. This is particularly so with respect to starforce mini-images. It should also be remembered that CD Freaks is based in Holland where copyright laws are a little more relaxed than in many other countries and what is ok for that forum is not necessarily ok here.]

flips/philamber

Edited by flips, 21 December 2004 - 12:49 AM.

[zamiel]

Seeming its become more of a legal discussion I'm moving this to the off-topic forum.

Until Phoenix informs us otherwise we will not support these mini images due to their questionable legality. Cheers.

[bcn_246]

I thought you said that they where legal in the US.

Ben